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How do we wish to form a "steering group" ?
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kris



Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 1494
Location: South Pacific

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: How do we wish to form a "steering group" ? Reply with quote

I'd like to propose we nominate our choices for a steering group (or committee if you prefer). To my mind, these folks would bring others in to help them figure out the merits of X or Y or Z, as proposed or touted by the rest of us.

Therefore, these esteemed and cheery individuals should have some desirable qualities between them:

a) an interest in the project
b) a level temperment, and a penchant for pragmatism
c) some organization skills

That knocks me out on two counts Embarassed How we'd nominate is rather up in the air. We could just name volunteers (*cough*) right here, but some might prefer to do so anonymously. I'm sure someone would be willing to accept pseudo-anonymous email nominations on behalf of others.

I'm going to be on a sailboat all weekend, which is unfortunate timing. Hence, I'm gonna' take a deep breath, and dive in without giving this a chance to be sounded off.

I'd like to nominate four people for the steering group, based on their contributions to the D code-body, and the NG:

- Lars Ivar Igesund
- Justin Calvarese
- Eric Anderton
- Andy Friesen

Note that there's no ordering there! I think it's a combination of skills that will make this work. There are plenty others I'd really like to nominate, but can't be too greedy!

My tuppence worth.
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kris



Joined: 27 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me augment that by suggesting that the "steering group" figure out which model they wish to adopt in the long run ...
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sean



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
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Location: Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(repost from the D forum)

Boost works in a similar way to what I was envisioning here. The committee consists of all mailing list members. Formal submissions require a list sponsor who volunteers to be the review manager (so there's no one person with more authority than any other). All list members are welcome to submit formal reviews and it is the review manager's job to sort through all the information and reject or accept the submission. Pre-submission evaluation is kind of unstructured and happens both on the list and in other forums. In our case, I had proposed that Deimos be the venue for pre-review discussion, since that's pretty much what it was intended for in the first place. The full description of the Boost process is here: http://boost.org/more/formal_review_process.htm
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qbert



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 209
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm excited this is finnaly happening! I like the boost proccess. It has proven successfull for boost, and is open enough so that anyone can participate. So in an effort not to lose momentum, why don't we vote on adopting the boost submission process ? ( 1 for yes, 0 for no )


Vote 1.

P.S. I can set up a mailing list ( Ill buy DSLG.net later if its still available ), on a domain if we need one for the short term. Will take a couple hours at most.


Charlie
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qbert



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 209
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I may have jumped the gun with the voting thing, scratch that for now, I don't want to take this away from the people who started it.

However I do like the boost process. And I can still get a mailing list if we need.

Charlie
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sean



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 609
Location: Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote 1. I don't know if we need a mailing list though. This forum is easy to use and is self-archiving. Why not just keep discussions here?
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jcc7



Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 657
Location: Muskogee, OK, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sean wrote:
Boost works in a similar way to what I was envisioning here. The committee consists of all mailing list members.
We might be able to use a specific topic on this forum as a mailing list (see the "Notify me when a reply is posted" checkbox that is there when you post?).

The Boost plan sounds pretty good. It's more formal than I was thinking, but I guess we can still go hog-wild submitting things to the Deimos project before we have to review it for inclusion to Phoenix (or whatever it's called). I read it pretty quick, though. I'll try to study it some more tonight.

Can qbert and sean be on the steering group, too? Or is there a limit to how big it can be? I don't want to turn away anyone who wants to help out.
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pragma



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 607
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry guys, I wrote another book. Please read, thank you. Smile

Thank you Kris, for the kind nomination. However, i'd like the notion to be reconsidered once participation here is increased as many of our cohorts from the NG aren't participating in the project yet.

Are Matthew and or Jill going to contribute to this project? Perhaps somone should email them an invite?

Here's my thoughts on the matter of getting started here. These are suggestions only, and I am open to having these ideas torn to shreds in comittee so long as it suits the needs of the project. Smile

As sean pointed out, Boost has already sovled the problems we're having. I'd like to use some of their ideas as a model for getting things moving here.

Assuming that nobody has an issue using PHPBB, and that our host (Brad) is relatively impartial to the goals of the project, we can probably continue to use this board for poposals and reviews (it'll be easier to use than email and digests anyway let alone the NG).

I think that if we designate "Library Custodians" based on inital contributions, that would go a long way toward stabilizing things.

Also, I'd like to advocate using the /tags portion of the SVN repository like so:

/tags/sandbox/ <--- working sandboxes for custodians
/tags/contrib/ <--- misc contributions
/tags/review/ <--- revised portions of the library posted for review by the public

I know it seems premature now, but since most OSS projects derive their stability from the logical organization of their sourcecode (e.g. boost, php), it seems very appropriate to start here.

This way /tags helps define our workflow from concept to conception. The /trunk represents the latest release only, and /branches can contain archival versions (src and bin) of the library. /downloads then would contain binary and source releases.

That's about it. I'd like to get some more ideas going here on direction and purpose, procedure so we can begin to draft a charter of some kind.
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sean



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 609
Location: Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcc7 wrote:

The Boost plan sounds pretty good. It's more formal than I was thinking, but I guess we can still go hog-wild submitting things to the Deimos project before we have to review it for inclusion to Phoenix (or whatever it's called). I read it pretty quick, though. I'll try to study it some more tonight.

It doesn't have to be that formal to start, but it gives us something to work towards if we need it. The Boost approach appeals to me because it is fairly decentralized and thus avoids any issues that may otherwise result concerning veto power or whatever. If the initial "formal review" process ends up being a discussion followed by a show of hands then that's fine.
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kris



Joined: 27 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcc7 wrote:
Can qbert and sean be on the steering group, too? Or is there a limit to how big it can be? I don't want to turn away anyone who wants to help out.

Oh, I was just putting forward my nominations to get the ball rolling ... if a steering group (aka DSLG) takes form, it should be through the nominations of all of us.

Regarding the notion of a "steering group":

I've said this elsewhere, but I'll note it again: my only fear is that, without a rudder, this will become yet another zone where it's rare for more than two people to agree on anything. If such a thing happens, who's gonna' be the guide? Perhaps that fear is unfounded.

Having said that, I can't claim to have a lot of direct experience with organizing such things ... only the wear & tear from too many years of interaction Wink
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brad
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Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Atlanta, GA USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding of the common use of /tags in the SVN repos is that it represents what the /trunk looked like at a point in time.

So you'd have
/tags/beta1
/tags/beta2
/tags/rc1
/tags/1.0
/tags/1.1
/tags/1.2

and so on. Each of these "copies of the trunk at a point in time" may have the full /src /doc /bin folders underneath them. Note this is just the common usage noted in the SVN Book online. You can do as you wish. And you're not limited to just the four top-level folders.

So ...

/branches
/downloads (a dsource.org unique folder)
/staging/sandbox
/staging/contrib
/staging/review
/tags
/trunk

or however you'd like to organize it.
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pragma



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 607
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brad wrote:


/branches
/downloads (a dsource.org unique folder)
/staging/sandbox
/staging/contrib
/staging/review
/tags
/trunk


Gotcha. I actually like that better. I must've misread the SVN documentation.

BTW, if anyone else (like myself) is still a tiny bit mystified as to how subversion is different from CVS, this may help clear things up:

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2004/08/19/subversiontips.html
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pragma



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 607
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Attempting to steer somewhat. Reply with quote

I would like to do the following things if that's alright by everyone else.

I'd like to start three additional topics on the board:

- what you think "Phoenix" should do, and how it can improve D.
- an open call for features.
- open call for basic coding standards.

I think a structured discussion under those topics should help develop some sense of direction. Once activity has died down there (a day or two) I, or someone else, can scoop up the consensus of those three threads and compose an actual project plan of some kind (nothing fancy, just the basics).

This way the way forward remains open and is exposed to scrutiny from the very start. Smile
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jcc7



Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Attempting to steer somewhat. Reply with quote

pragma wrote:
I would like to do the following things if that's alright by everyone else.

I'd like to start three additional topics on the board:

- what you think "Phoenix" should do, and how it can improve D.
- an open call for features.
- open call for basic coding standards.
Great! Those are essential topics that we should discuss.
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pragma



Joined: 28 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcc7 wrote:
The Boost plan sounds pretty good.


sean wrote:
It doesn't have to be that formal to start, but it gives us something to work towards if we need it. The Boost approach appeals to me because it is fairly decentralized and thus avoids any issues that may otherwise result concerning veto power or whatever. If the initial "formal review" process ends up being a discussion followed by a show of hands then that's fine.


I agree with both of you. I'd like to see us start with what we have here, something simple, and then work towards an actual review process as the project matures.

I think the need for process improvement will be evident as the complexity of Phoenix increases. Eventually, we'll need controls in place to make sure that changes to minimize regressions, incedental bugs, etc.
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